The Burton Batman movies are about as bad as the Schumacher ones...

[powersthatbe]

well we are talking about a movie 19 years ago i thought at the time it was good,with jack nicholson's creepy wait til they get a load of me and i remember what a frenzy fanboys were when micheal keaton was announced for bruce wayne/ batman . you got to admit he did pull it off pretty good.and i liked the brain over brawn aspect.i still prefer that batsuit over the latter ones even batman begins where the mask still looks too fat.it may not be timeless like superman with chris reeve but i did like it then and still do this day.and that 1989 batmobile still my favorite of all the movies.hey we almost had a superman movie with tim burton can you imagine what that would have been like?

[Coffee Joe]

well we are talking about a movie 19 years ago i thought at the time it was good,

So did I, at the time.  I was 11.

with jack nicholson's creepy wait til they get a load of me

I'll grant that it was one of the only times that Jack Nicholson actually played a character, instead of simply being Jack Nicholson undergoing yet another wacky adventure.  He got the crazy pretty good, he just wasn't right for the part.  And I always hated his makeup.

and i remember what a frenzy fanboys were when micheal keaton was announced for bruce wayne/ batman . you got to admit he did pull it off pretty good.and i liked the brain over brawn aspect.

I remember being pleasantly surprised by Michael Keaton.  Remember, the only roles he had of note to that point were Johnny Dangerously, Mr. Mom and Beetlejuice.  It was hard as hell to picture him in the rold.  But I did enjoy it a great deal.  And he was a damn sight better than Val Kilmer or George Clooney.  I simply think that Christian Bale has the Bruce Wayne part down better.

i still prefer that batsuit over the latter ones even batman begins where the mask still looks too fat.

Agreed.  Though I never understood why they fucked with the batsymbol and added extra scallops at the bottom of it... that just never made sense to me.  But it did look much better than anything else we've seen on the screen since.

hey we almost had a superman movie with tim burton can you imagine what that would have been like?

A nightmare.  Nicholas Cage as an urban superhero.  Thank God it was never made.

[Scot Eric]

I’m all in favor of a more light hearted Bat-movie thread, especially in light of a few heartless posts I’ve come across over the past few days.
 
I usually contend that more often than NOT – Burton’s films tend to be more style than substance.  His best film to date – in my opinion – is still ED WOOD.  While I may have issues or problems with several aspects of his first two Batman films – to slide them into the “sucks” category is…well…pretty fucking ridiculous.

To address the 20+ points that our favorite delightfully dunderheaded Daltrey devotee ticked off earlier today:

1. Bob the Goon. And the action figure that followed.
So we start off with a reach – really, what was the problem with his head thug?  Dude’s a fun character actor – and he does a fine job here.  Other than being referred to as “Bob the Goon” – which is never said in the actual film – I see no issue with the character.  I could give two fucks and a hairy load about the crappy action figure.

2. What a fat bastard that major character is. Yes, I'm talking about... Commissioner Gordon. What? Who did you think I was gonna mention?
Ah, you are sly, but so am I.  Sure, this was not the Commissioner Gordon we all know and love over the past few decades.  Big fucking deal.  He more resembles the original incarnation of the character anyways.  The only people who saw this film and were concerned about that – were the same people wondering where Chief O’Hara was.  Plus, knocking the holy Hingle just ain’t cool, fool.

3. The Joker killed my parents! "I made you, you made me, we both made doody!" How deep; how zen; I can really, really see how they're like both sides of the same coin. Bats and clowns eh? Indivisible in the minds of everyone. Also, this makes Joker a good twenty years older than Batman, and yet he's beating the shit out of him. Hey, you big bully, what's the idea of picking on that little bully?
I can’t deny this one – I HATED that idea.  Stupid, stupid, stupid – and essentially undercuts the origins of both characters for an unnecessary attempt to tie them together.

4. Jack Palance snoring while he's delivering his lines.
The only thing worse than knocking Hingle – is piling on Palance.  I did a séance this afternoon and raised his corpse – oddly, he actually looks BETTER now.  I relayed your comments to Decaying Jack – and he has a message for you.  “Screw off, ya little pissant.”  His words, not mine!  Then he started to gnaw on my skull...

5. Jerry Hall. "You look fahne!". Jagger's faithful steed steps up to the thespian plate to a resounding cry of don't call us, we'll call you. She later gets fucked over and scarred for life, and she doesn't do too well in the movie, either.
Again, can’t really disagree with this one either.  Actually, I thought either Jack could do better than this used-up whore.

6. Jack bopping to that eighties-centric Prince soundtrack. How undignified.
I’m half & half on this point.  I would like to jettison all the Prince music (though I confess I bought the Bat-Dance single – there, I said it) – but I also think it’s ludicrous to be concerned about the JOKER looking “undignified”.

7. What's My Plot Again? Seriously, is there one? Batman appears, creates the Joker ("I made you, you made me!"), Joker's motives seem a bit uncertain, something something Vicki Vale, they fight, Joker dies, which leads me into:
While I wouldn't call the film plot-heavy --- I believe there's a story line that can be discerned and followed - and running it through the retardo-processor to produce your synopsis - well, fuck - we can do that with anything. 

8. Joker dies. The first time he fights Batman? What the fuck?
Yeah - that pissed me off too.  If they had only come up with a way for the Joker to fall - and the body not recovered - THEN I would have been fine with it, because that used to happen in every Joker story.

9. Batman: Likes to kill, not too keen on detective work. "Hairspray won't do it alone, but..." Hey, don't break your brain there, Bats. Lucky you've got that computer, eh, Sherlock?
Yawn.  Is this "killing" thing referring to blowing up the factory (not clear that anyone dies) - or the guns on the Batmobile (oh, Christ, whiny fuckers need to give that a rest...fucking car has been equipped with goddamned missiles and all sorts of shit...plus, it's fucking cool.

10. That art gallery scene. Supposed to convey Joker as anarchic lord of misrule, is just shit. Also, more Prince.
Agreed on the Prince crap appearing again.  Not agreeing with the trashing of the gallery - seems very much in line with Joker-sort of insanity.

11. Secret Identity? Batman reveals his identity to every fucker in these movies. I'm surprised he bothers to wear a mask. Joker, Vicki, Max Schreck, Catwoman...Jesus. "Hey, alleyway thug, it's me, Bruce Wayne, of Wayne Manor, you know? Yeah, just off Highway 5!"
I was never thrilled with that either.  Reminds me of how nearly everyone in NYC has seen Spider-Man with most, if not all of HIS mask off.

12. Penguin. Flippers, sewers, etc. How very Tim Burton. Also, "shit".
I'm apparently in the minority (and happily so) - but I actually never minded the re-imagining of the Penguin.  In fact, the ONLY thing I could have done with out was the black goo leaking from his mouth.  Otherwise - didn't bother me one bit.  Those that it did bother - some of you - OK, I get it.  The rest of ya - I'll Fed-Ex a pair of ice tongs to y'all so you can pluck that stick out of your respective rectums.

13. Catwoman's origin. "Thrown out of window, licked by radioactive cats..."
Now now...here I thought the Brits were known for their excellent sense of humor.  Radioactive cats indeed.  Ho ho.  See, this didn't bother me - because as big a Batman fan I've been over the past 30 something years...I've never really liked Catwoman up until the more recent incarnations.  To be more blunt - no one really gave a fuck about her origin, especially me - so it thus --- it didn't bother me.

14. Whenever Catwoman meows, licks herself or in general acts like a woman acting like a cat in an exaggerated way, I renounce liking comics and hope no-one ever, ever sees me at the cinema. It's toe-curlingly embarassing.
Sure - it's a little silly - but Pfieffer in that outfit - really hard to knock it.  And compared to stuff in puh-lenty of other comic book or fantasy films - no one really finds it all that embarrassing - except for those trying to hide their burgeoning woodies. 

15. Walken's hair.
Wow...this list sure has entries that feel like you were really really stretching to fill out 20 - maybe you should have went with a more powerful top 10 list instead.  Less would definitely have been more - as in more likely to prove your point.  Walken is unassailable on these shores, dude.

16. "Hello There / Hell Here!" So clever, and also deep AND zen. What a complex mind you must have to come up with that!
Is it poor form to resort to using the rolling eyes emoticon in these responses?  Consider it implied here.

17. Batman's eye makeup. You can spring for that Batwing thing, but not lenses? Don't give me that "can't see too well" business, it's a movie, he isn't really fighting crime, he doesn't need peripheral vision that much. I would say it's definitely preferable to Batman looking like a Goddammt panda.
Now that's actually an interesting point.  I think the mask should have been conceived in such a way so that it wouldn't be evident that there's some sort of makeup going on there - though I convinced myself it was some wacky inner lining of the mask.  OK, I never actually convinced myself.  I'm actually surprised I've never heard anyone rag on that before.  Oh yeah, most people I know aren't so persnickety about details like that with these films.

18. Penguin dies. The first time he fights...yadda yadda yadda.
Agreed.  I kept holding out hope there would be some indication that Pengy survived - but sadly, t'was not to be.

19. Catwoman leaps up, tries to twat Batman a good one, but Batman stoically and very slowly* knocks her on her ass. Then she says, "How could you, I'm a woman!", He helps her up, she kicks him in the junk. That seems to happen a lot in that movie. Does it?
Umm...I don't have the film memorized frame by frame - so I'm going to say it doesn't happen a lot in the film - with the admission I could be proven wrong on that one.  Fuck it - there should be MORE gnad-smashing in superhero flicks, not less.  More titty twisters too.

20. The Penguin wants to be mayor? Feh. I saw that in the TV show, and that had Meredith doing a little jig to the ginchy sounds of Paul Revere and the Raiders. Burton KNOWS he couldn't beat that.
Ah - see, now you're raising one of my mocking issues with Batman Returns (even though I still like the film a LOT) - the fact that Burton took two different Penguin plots from the old TV show (or - the screenwriter did that, not Burton - know the difference, people) and smushed them into this film.

*Bonus one in general. Batman is a robot, not fast or athletic. He can barely turn his fuckin head and yet, it's lenses that'll restrict his vision?!. There, I said it. But you'll notice I stayed largely away from dissing the casting. That should earn me some leeway.
Agreed that Bats should have been more mobile - but they didn't seem to know how to get that outfit to be more sleek - although I think it looks pretty good in the 2nd film.  I long ago decided I didn't give a twiddler's twat about the fucking lenses, and the only leeway you'd get for NOT knocking the casting is that bashing Nicholson or Keaton or whatever became tired decades ago.

And just to assure some point losses, and to spread a little well-meaning venom around...

Meas - I was all ready to eviscerate you for the "Fat Joker" comment...but someone committed a far worse transgression after you.  CJ - making a comment like that about Nicholson just ain't gonna fly with me.  I mean...I could write a post twice as long as this one already is - just based on responding to that one statement.  Talk about causing an apoplectic reaction!  You've gone and done a vewwy vewwy bad thing there...

[powersthatbe]

well the one thing about burton filming superman lives that pittsburgh my hometown would have served as the basis for metropolis on a personal level i would of loved in seeing that of course but that movie with cage as superman might have ruined the movie franchise appeal of superman to a point of no return

[Coffee Joe]

CJ - making a comment like that about Nicholson just ain't gonna fly with me.  I mean...I could write a post twice as long as this one already is - just based on responding to that one statement.  Talk about causing an apoplectic reaction!

Scot, don't get me wrong.  I love Jack Nicholson in everything he's done.  But I still hold that, after his early work (up to and including The Shining), he started to phone it in the same way that Pacino has.  You get the same basic persona on screen in every one of their roles, with few exceptions.  For Jack, Batman, A Few Good Men and The Witches of Eastwick seem to be parts where he really immersed himself.  There may be others I forgot to mention, but for the majority of the rest it seems to be the same Jack persona in every movie.  And I love it, don't get me wrong.  But there's very little that's unique about many of his performances.

[Scot Eric]

Some post-Shining roles that I would use to rebut that point - Reds, Ironweed, Prizzi's Honor, The Pledge, As Good As It Gets (those who knock this one - either need to watch it again, or don't understand acting) and About Schmidt. 

I'll also cut you a little slack - since you did differentiate a bit from others by saying from the Shining on - because I usually have this argument with people who claim that about his entire career - when I then have to trot out his numerous great performances pre Shining.

But since in his career - I can easily name at least a dozen decidedly different portrayals and characters - that's more than most actors (dead or alive) can claim.

(So kids - can we all guess who Scot's favorite actor is?  No, not Hasseloff...he'd be number two...)

[Coffee Joe]

I'll grand you As Good as it Gets... wasn't that enthralled with About Schmidt, though I did forget to mention Anger Management.

Still... the vast majority of the 90s, and most of this decade, were exactly what I said: Jack Nicholsom undergoing wacky misadventures.

[OMAC]

Which movie is it where the eye makeup disappears after the mask comes off? Is it the Phantom? That's lame, although I still like that movie.

I like that movie too, and that flick proves that you can be an ordinary dude without super powers and still don't need a rubber costume or a rubber cowl to fight crime!

I know, I've said it many times. I just don't understand why every movie superhero can wear spandex except Batman who always has to wear a fucking armor. Sorry, but this has always been my biggest gripe about the Batman movies since Burton's first film.

Ok, I'll give it a rest now...

[Paradise Bar]

I have some fondness for the Burton Bat-flicks, though Michael Keaton was a sad choice for the title role.  I prefer the second flick, with Penguin and Catwoman.  Wasn't Burton "goth" before it was "cool" ?  The Schumacher films continue the same level of spectacle, but there's no style to it, just effects. 

[Marv-El]

I too have a fondness at least for the first Burton, which was a refreshingly grown-up look at a character and field I had loved for years (I was 22 in 1989). Specifically, I liked the Prince music (apparently by myself here), although it didn't work terrifically well in the movie. I liked the costume, however much it limited the actor's mobility. I liked having a Vicki Vale, but she was nearly useless in the movie. I didn't care for Nicholson's portrayal, but it brought a level of respectability to the film and the genre.

The second movie--much as I wanted to like it, it was too grim and cold, unfeeling, uninteresting. I liked Burgess Meredith better in as Penguin in every way. No complaints about Michelle Pfeiffer, however. Walken was a delight, but seemed redundant and wasted; I would rather have seen him saved for Hugo Strange or the Scarecrow in another movie.

The Schumachers: alright, hate me here. I liked them both, for all their goofy, splashy, over-the-top psychedelic fifth-grade qualities. The Poison Ivy number went on too long, Bane was wasted, I don't like Jim Carrey in general, Tommy Lee Jones did not do the only screen Two-face justice...but I made up my mind after seeing the first couple minutes of each movie that we were just going for the popcorn here and let it go, enjoying the movies with the mind of a 10-year-old. Arnold brought the Otto Preminger Mr. Freeze to new life, the giant statues of Gotham were fun to see, George Clooney did the best job as Bruce since Adam West and Kilmer did the best job of showing the division between the two personalities--there were things I truly liked in the two.

But--none of them hold a candle to Begins. Two great Batman movies at once. Love it. 

[John Moores]

I'll grant that it was one of the only times that Jack Nicholson actually played a character, instead of simply being Jack Nicholson undergoing yet another wacky adventure.  He got the crazy pretty good, he just wasn't right for the part.  And I always hated his makeup.

I'll agree to a point. I think Nicholson is a fantastic actor, but the one thing that was lacking for me - which of course Nicholson can't help really - is the voice. I always think the Joker should have a very strange theatrical voice (cf Romero, Hamill) not a cool drawl. Nicholson being heavy does'n't bother me OVERLY much, because I like it simply as a reaction to over-thin Joker we've seen for the last thirty-odd years.

Agreed.  Though I never understood why they fucked with the batsymbol and added extra scallops at the bottom of it... that just never made sense to me.  But it did look much better than anything else we've seen on the screen since.

Jesus, that's right. It bugged at the time, then I've literally forgotten about it for nearly twenty years (I was 14 when the movie opened, btw). That's exactly the kind of hardcore nitpicking I love about this site, for real. Why fuck with something like that for nothing?

[measle]

Some post-Shining roles that I would use to rebut that point - Reds, Ironweed, Prizzi's Honor, The Pledge, As Good As It Gets (those who knock this one - either need to watch it again, or don't understand acting) and About Schmidt. 

I'll also cut you a little slack - since you did differentiate a bit from others by saying from the Shining on - because I usually have this argument with people who claim that about his entire career - when I then have to trot out his numerous great performances pre Shining.

But since in his career - I can easily name at least a dozen decidedly different portrayals and characters - that's more than most actors (dead or alive) can claim.

(So kids - can we all guess who Scot's favorite actor is?  No, not Hasseloff...he'd be number two...)

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say Jack's "been phoning movies in".  I think it's more a case of Jack taking an easy paycheck, and doing a few movies that are beneath someone of his talent.  But I can hardly fault a guy for not wanting to go big every time, and taking an easy payday.  Michael Caine, who is also a fine actor did the very same thing and to a far greater extent.

[Matt-Ak]

Clooney kept his head drooped and looking through his eyebrows through the whole thing like he was channeling David Jannsen.

For weeks afterwards, I had the Kingston Trio going through my brain...

"Hang Down Your Head George Clooney."

[John Moores]

2. What a fat bastard that major character is. Yes, I'm talking about... Commissioner Gordon. What? Who did you think I was gonna mention?
Ah, you are sly, but so am I.  Sure, this was not the Commissioner Gordon we all know and love over the past few decades.  Big fucking deal.  He more resembles the original incarnation of the character anyways.  The only people who saw this film and were concerned about that – were the same people wondering where Chief O’Hara was.  Plus, knocking the holy Hingle just ain’t cool, fool.

The early Gordon wasn't no hogzilla, no how! And hey, O'Hara appeared in the Englehart / Rogers run of sainted memory, muddafugga!

6. Jack bopping to that eighties-centric Prince soundtrack. How undignified.
I’m half & half on this point.  I would like to jettison all the Prince music (though I confess I bought the Bat-Dance single – there, I said it) – but I also think it’s ludicrous to be concerned about the JOKER looking “undignified”.

The Joker, no. Jack Nicholson, yes. He's the guy who helped make one of the greatest music movies evah, after all. (That would be "Head")

7. What's My Plot Again? Seriously, is there one? Batman appears, creates the Joker ("I made you, you made me!"), Joker's motives seem a bit uncertain, something something Vicki Vale, they fight, Joker dies, which leads me into:
While I wouldn't call the film plot-heavy --- I believe there's a story line that can be discerned and followed - and running it through the retardo-processor to produce your synopsis - well, fuck - we can do that with anything. 

I still hold that it's plot-lite, even by superhero movie standards. Maybe if the Joker's motives were a little clearer, it might've been better. If he'd knocked over a jewellery store or even announced that he'd kill Henry Claridge and steal the Claridge diamond at midnight... I dunno.

9. Batman: Likes to kill, not too keen on detective work. "Hairspray won't do it alone, but..." Hey, don't break your brain there, Bats. Lucky you've got that computer, eh, Sherlock?
Yawn.  Is this "killing" thing referring to blowing up the factory (not clear that anyone dies) - or the guns on the Batmobile (oh, Christ, whiny fuckers need to give that a rest...fucking car has been equipped with goddamned missiles and all sorts of shit...plus, it's fucking cool.

And yet you didn't address the lack of detective work, perhaps because you were too busy yawning?

13. Catwoman's origin. "Thrown out of window, licked by radioactive cats..."
Now now...here I thought the Brits were known for their excellent sense of humor.  Radioactive cats indeed.  Ho ho.  See, this didn't bother me - because as big a Batman fan I've been over the past 30 something years...I've never really liked Catwoman up until the more recent incarnations.  To be more blunt - no one really gave a fuck about her origin, especially me - so it thus --- it didn't bother me.

Ah, but that's YOU. I don't care for Wonder Woman, but were I in charge of the JLA movie, I wouldn't give her the shitty end of the stick. Catwoman's origin has been amorphous at best, I agree (stewardess with amnesia gone near-schizo / abused wife of rich guy out for revenge, finds she enjoys the thrill of stealing / um, buzzcut ho steals teddy bears from corrupt commissioner) but anything's better than that vague supernatural-ish sorta kinda crap they fed us. They took the schizo element of the 50s origin, probably independently - I mean, those first two movies are chock full o' that shit ("I'm me, but I'm also Batman. We're two different people. Really.") but does Catwoman even need an origin? She's pretty easy to explain once Batman and the Joker and the likes are on the scene.

15. Walken's hair.
Wow...this list sure has entries that feel like you were really really stretching to fill out 20 - maybe you should have went with a more powerful top 10 list instead.  Less would definitely have been more - as in more likely to prove your point.  Walken is unassailable on these shores, dude.

That hair looks dumb. Maybe it's just because his being there is such a wasted opportunity anyway. You don't need two Batman villains in a movie - unlss it's say, Killer Moth and the Signalman. Adding a great menace-style character actor is even worse.

16. "Hello There / Hell Here!" So clever, and also deep AND zen. What a complex mind you must have to come up with that!
Is it poor form to resort to using the rolling eyes emoticon in these responses?  Consider it implied here.

Whatever, my friend. But that's still an elementary and lame touch in a movie and it's the worse because it seems to think it's terribly clever.

OK, I never actually convinced myself.  I'm actually surprised I've never heard anyone rag on that before. 

Really? That's always bugged me, and I think, Ab too.

[powersthatbe]

i couldn't get clooney smiling all the time under the cowl in the promo shots then."he's a happy batman" sheez.i do remember the first pic of keaton i saw as batman next to the batmobile in an issue of newsweek was so cool at the time,the suit being what it was and being all black and not grey and blue i was excited to see it.i was 19 when it came out.also i thought it was sort of cool that it wasnt a modern day telling like batman begins was,the way it was filmed like there was no set time period for it.

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