how fuggin miserable are warner execs right now about marvel movies...

[Scot Eric]

You know, I could argue and debate about this, but it seems pointless. Of course you're entitled to your opinion, and that's cool. But it also feels like due to the Avengers film, it is now open season on DC, the studio, the films and all productions both past and present. It's become an unseemly dance around a bonfire, and I don't really want to be part of it, as beyond any hypocrisy and memories of convenience, it seems to exemplify and underscore the most easily mocked aspects of our geek culture.

It's funny how just a few days ago, most of us were entrenched in a powerful discussion about what's gone wrong at the Mess, as many felt we had regressed to nothing more then kvetching and whining about certain action figures, and how it appeared only a handful of people ever ventured away from those cynical and increasingly negative threads.

Then a movie like this hits. And it's great, great fun. And in less than 24 hours, I'd wager more than half the comments that have followed are more about trashing DC than anything else.  I'm not here to speak on their behalf, because Lord knows they've made missteps. Plus, folks like SD Mike and Rod can talk about DC in a more evenhanded fashion, and probably a heck of a lot more concisely than me.

But, while I've tried to restrain myself (you have no idea how many posts I've written and subsequently deleted over the past couple days), I felt I had to say SOMETHING. Now I've done that, and folks can ignore, dock or lash out if they like. I'm only giving my opinion and perspective here. Hey, at least it's not a review & critique of the film, because even though I really really liked it overall, I suspect my numerous criticisms would do little more than inspire vehement rebuking. Besides, I think I need to see it at least one or two more times in case some of the logic problems are more things I simply "missed" the first time around.

[JSayonara]

I've yet to see the Avengers (I know), but I stand by my comments.

Batman & Robin, Superman Returns, Catwoman, Jonah Hex, Constantine (which I admit I enjoyed, but ahh, it should have been so much better).

Warner's seem incapable of getting it together.

Why is it so hard for them to draw from their stable and just do what the comic does, writ large on screen?

We'll see I guess, once Supes gets another shot.

[Scot Eric]

I've yet to see the Avengers (I know), but I stand by my comments.

Batman & Robin, Superman Returns, Catwoman, Jonah Hex, Constantine (which I admit I enjoyed, but ahh, it should have been so much better).

Warner's seem incapable of getting it together.

Why is it so hard for them to draw from their stable and just do what the comic does, writ large on screen?

We'll see I guess, once Supes gets another shot.

And guess what, I actually agree with pretty much everything you've said in this post.  My post was more about the overall tidal wave of sentiment.  I'm probably the only person who has been genuinely put off by it all, so perhaps my post is better off ignored. But that's why I haven't said all that much over the past couple of days...

[B-Lister]

Why would the Teen Titans need origins for each character? You could handle the basics in ten minutes, then skip straight to the action.

X-Men didn't need an origin for each character, neither would this.

Robin: First Partner to the Batman, expert strategist and Martial Artist.
Cyborg: Injured in an accident, Vic Stone sought to rebuild his life and give it new meaning.
Beast Boy: Bitten by a strange monkey, the disease meant to kill Gar Logan, instead saved him, he can now change into any animal!
Starfire: Formerly enslaved princess of an alien world.
And Raven, daughter of the Demon Trigon, struggling to balance the light and Dark.

Together, they are the Teen Titans!

Now that that's out of the way, strap in for two hours of fuckin'movie.

See! Easy peasy! Shit writes itself. Where's my fat fuckin' Hollywood check?

[urbanmyth]

Have u guys listened to Word Balloon ep 384 with Marty Pasko?  Apparently he used to work for DC in the movie script pitching business and has some insight into DC/Warner's failures and how Disney and Warner differ and how the new 52 reboot was more about reclaiming copyright on all the characters than anything else.  He kinda sounds like a old man who may just like to hear himself talk but it's worth a listen (comes after an interview with Wacker).

[Gadabout]

Scot, I am sorry that you feel so negatively about our discussion.

Like you said, we are entitled to our opinions and as you stated, we're geeks. We have comics, trades, art books, sketches, autographs, tee shirts, figures, statues, posters, phone cases, DVD's, and more all proclaiming that we probably care too much about this stuff for some reason.

I'm not dancing around some fire to be part of a group or because I am too simple minded to think for myself.

Whatever negativity I have right now is because I am watching what I would consider "The opposing team" kick the shit out of the guys I root for. My thoughts stray to what I wish DC movies could be every time I see Marvel doing it so right. It happened in Iron Man years ago and has continued with Thor, Cap, and finally The Avengers.

Pile on top of that the fact that the reboot has really killed my enthusiasm for the comics to a large degree, and yeah, I'm bummed out. Yeah, I am complaining about it. I really don't see how that's so offensive to you.

You speak about this as though it's you against the world here and that doesn't seem to be the case at all. Most of us really respect you as far as I can tell. i know I do. Is it possible you may be taking our differing perspectives personally somehow?

The only post between your second to last post and the last one was one person laughing at your Nacho joke and me simply agreeing with FMS that a more comic accurate Bane would be my preference. I'm left feeling that it was the spark that ignited your follow up, and if it did, I don't understand why.   

[Scot Eric]

No worries, it wasn't the spark -- the gist of what I posted had been on my mind for the past couple days.

I probably do come off as though I'm taking things personally.  That's my fault, as even when I dress up my posts with twenty-five cent words, sometimes my own feelings still shine through.

Whatevs -- every once in a while, be it here or on FB, I'm in a cranky mood and it spills over onto the internet.  It's a shitty thing to do (cost me an FB friendship with at least one "semi-Messer"), and regardless of whatever's happening in "life" -- there's no real good excuse for it. 

Me getting inordinately pissed off because a handful of people are slighting the Nolan films in comparison to the Avengers (which may not QUITE be apples and oranges -- it's certainly two very different types of apples) -- it's as silly if not more so than anything I posted earlier.  But hey, TV commercials can make me cry, so clearly my emotions can be easily tweaked (as one may recall from my ridiculous reactions from the deduction of imaginary points).

And folks proposing what they wish WB / DC had done, or should do -- that's totally cool.  I just found what I perceived to be a dog pile on WB / DC to be a bit much,  as if that was the big story. 

As for the "me against the world" tone -- I suppose that was in regards to what I said about (1) the possible reaction to what I had posted and (2) if I pointed out any problems in the Avengers film.  If my tone came off that hyperbolic, I again apologize -- it may be the dopiest reason of all time to nail one's self to a cross. 

See, I should have stuck to the handful of threads I've been concentrating on as of late.  But it's hard for me to not chime in on movie-related shit...

[Aquaman71]

I think a lot of what has been stated in this thread could actually be related to sports.  One team keeps chugging along going up and down season after season.  The other team getting things together and winning the super bowl.  Yeah, it may seem like whining or venting just to vent.

But, to me it is because we want d c to do what marvel has done.  I know jealousy is a horrible thing when it comes to movies.

[Gardner Grayle]

The biggest difference I see between Marvel and DC movies is that Marvel seems to be able to keep closer to the source material.  Which captures what makes the character popular and accessable in the first place.  DC/Warner wants to "re-imagine" and overthink all of their properties in an effort to appeal to a broader audience.  Which in most cases you really don't need to do as proved by Marvel.  When Marvel Studios decided to make the Spider-Man and X-Men franchises more "comic accurate", the world opened up to it.  Making a huge U-turn from Daredevil, Hulk, and Fantastic Four.  Of course bigger budgets helped too.  They haven't looked back. 

I wish DC/Warner's would get the clue as well.       

[Big Raj]

But, to me it is because we want d c to do what marvel has done.  I know jealousy is a horrible thing when it comes to movies.

That's where I am.  I'm a Marvel guy first, but I want both companies to kill with these movies, so that we continue to get kick ass flicks for many years to come.  The Marvel Studios solo movies built up this shared universe and now The Avengers is destroying the box office, and it's frustrating when WB/DC can't seem, or don't want, to do the same.

[Scot Eric]

The biggest difference I see between Marvel and DC movies is that Marvel seems to be able to keep closer to the source material.  Which captures what makes the character popular and accessable in the first place.  DC/Warner wants to "re-imagine" and overthink all of their properties in an effort to appeal to a broader audience.  Which in most cases you really don't need to do as proved by Marvel.  When Marvel Studios decided to make the Spider-Man and X-Men franchises more "comic accurate", the world opened up to it.  Making a huge U-turn from Daredevil, Hulk, and Fantastic Four.  Of course bigger budgets helped too.  They haven't looked back. 

I wish DC/Warner's would get the clue as well.       

See, I'm all for what many of you are saying, wanting to see DC get their act together.  But this revisionist painting is what bugs me.  That's simply not the way it went down.

Spider-Man (2002)
Daredevil (2003)
X-Men (2000)
Fantastic Four (2005)
Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer (2007)
Hulk (2003)

What you SHOULD have said -- is starting with Iron Man in 2008 -- that's when Marvel started to put this in motion in the manner you described.

So can we make THAT the "starting point"?  Or do we just overlook all the Marvel missteps over the past 20 years and instead anoint them the golden child?  And I'm not even going to bother touching on the films that did lead up to the Avengers, as it appears they are all also now sacrosanct?   Apparently, "OK" and "Passable" are the new bars for excellence. Not to mention the other Marvel superhero films that have been released by studios outside of Paramount and now Disney over the four+ years, which lower that standard further, to "Kinda Crappy".

And we've agreed to do that (narrow the focus to 2008 and up) -- then what have we really got?  You have some minor DC-related films that are not really part of the major DCU (and wouldn't be part of any shared universe continuum) like the Losers and Jonah Hex (one kinda crappy, the other a horrible blight on cinema screens everywhere) -- so they don't count.

So what's been released over the past four & a half years?

THE DARK KNIGHT (2008) and GREEN LANTERN (2011)

When Nolan signed on to do the Batman films, they ceded creative control over to him, as he envisioned the world and a story (which turned out to be an actual trilogy).  Batman Begins restored the franchise from the steaming wreckage of the late 90's, and The Dark Knight was one of the most successful films of all time as well as one of the most critically lauded films as well.  THE DARK KNIGHT RISES hits theaters in a few months, and despite the "meh" reaction of some folks here, is still ranking as the most highly anticipated film of the year.

GREEN LANTERN  -- well, that was a huge piece of shit.

And, well -- that's pretty much it.  THE MAN OF STEEL comes out next year.  Is the ire due to the fact that it doesn't appear that such a film will be used as a building block to the rest of the DCU?

I can see wishing WB / DC had put some sort of strategy in place - and they had two opportunities that we know of to do this -- GREEN LANTERN (which might not have saved it from being utter dreck) and the upcoming MAN OF STEEL.  And that's about...it.  It just doesn't seem to be enough to base such a "storming the castle" mentality. 

[Gadabout]

I'm glad you seem to have taken my post as I intended it and not as an insult. I was really worried about the line asking if you might be taking it personally. In non-verbal conversation tone can be tricky and I was hoping you would not perceive that as a sarcastic question rather than sincere as I intended it.

There may be a case to be made for the expired equestrian flogging that is going on but it will pass.

I love the Nolan films. Love them. And you actually opened my eyes a bit to the trailer when you said he is playing it close to the vest. You're probably right. But after ODing on unabashed comic book goodness for 12 hours that DKR trailer was just not cutting it for me. I enjoyed it more the second time I saw it without the sensory overload of the Marvel Marathon.

I can't wait to see Anne Hathaway be an awesome Catwoman. I find it irksome I have to wonder if that will be the characters moniker though or if it will be mentioned in passing as a "nod" to the comics.

 I can't help but be irritated that she is not wearing a costume that reflects the comics better. I don't want an "homage" to the roots. I want an open, unapologetic, PROUD embracing of it's roots.

That said, these costumes are closer to the comics









So...yeah. I'm not saying it's everything. Just that in my perfect movie DC comics would be a little better represented in DC Comics movies.

It's not just about the shared universe thing, it's about the way the characters are interpreted in the films. For example, I can't help but think that with the idea being that Thor was an alien, he would have been tweaked and tinkered with into being one of the dumbest things ever if he had been used in a DC movie. I imagine some shit head "re-imagining" the hammer and making it "more alien" to the point it looks nothing like a hammer but has lots of spiky glowing bits.

Anyhoo.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Superman : The Movie is on AMC right now.

I am smiling.  I hadn't realized how long it'd been since I'd watched it.  They really, REALLY nailed it.  The tone, the writing, the look/atmosphere...I'll tell you, it's right there with The Avengers for me.

DC doesn't need to re-watch The Avengers over and over to get back on track, they need to watch THAT.

Peace,

Chip

[Marv-El]

And yet, Singer apparently did and we got Superman Returns. If Joe Johnston can come back from obscurity after The Rocketeer and give up Cap, maybe Michael Uslan really will get Captain Marvel onscreen properly.

[kcekada]

The reason they haven't succeeded is because Warner Brothers overthinks and micro-manages its concepts to death. Constantine is a great example. Take the British-ness out of the character and they've missed the point entirely. Turn Jonah Hex into a supernatural story and ditto. Make Superman a brooding, removed misfit instead of the hero that every kid wants to be because it's fun to be super-powered, and you've lost the essence.

Also, DC is still trying to be Marvel. The entire 52 is pretty much Ultimate DC. But they were doing it as far back as the Bronze Age, but at that time, it was working in their favor. I think you can update characters without making them act like douchebags.

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